There could be any number of places that were called “Cumorah.”. Evidence for the binary context seems self-evident and irrefutable, with no need for further explanation, and then we can rapidly move on to other issues that bolster the the narrative. ☼ Mormon 6:1–3: And now I finish my record concerning the destruction of my people, the Nephites. Come to Cumorah. He reported that a cave opened before them, containing the sword of Laban upon a table, and “wagon loads” of plates stacked high around the cavern. The real Cumorah Hill – not the hill in NY – was known by Mormon as a place where ALL sacred records where deposited, since Adam. “This book, which contained these things, was hid in the earth by Moroni, in a hill called by him, Cumorah, which hill is now in the state of New York, near the village of Palmyra, in Ontario county.” (Autobiography of Parley P. Pratt, pg. The ancients practiced battles of extermination, not for victory alone, but the entire destruction of their enemies. It is also near the location of the final battle where the Nephite race was destroyed. Burning everything in it. Maybe they called lots of places “Cumorah,” as there are certainly many places that are high and heaped up. West of the highway from visitors center It would actually be detrimental to Mormonism if heaps of bones and weapons were found at the drumlin hill in New York, because it would shift our narrative away from matters of faith. This hallowed hill continues to (Ether 13) There were additional battles leading up to Cumorah. The second occurred in 385 AD, in which 150,000 warriors were killed. The Hill Cumorah and the Hill Ramah were where Mormon hid up all the records save those few that he gave to his son Moroni. Copyright © 2019 Mormon Stories. The Battle of Cumorah. The massive battles depicted in the Book of Mormon represent the largest in human history. Then, he led his troops—230,000 of them—to battle. My friend asked, ... “It is known that the Hill Cumorah where the Nephites were destroyed is the hill where the Jaredites were also destroyed. Mormon mentions the hill Shim in Mormon 1:3 and 4:23, and the Nephites’ final battle at Cumorah in chapter 6 of his book. Mike Norton – Activist [Ye are the light of the world. I was there and saw the ashes my self I believe this is why George Albert Smith didn’t parade around the baskets of arrowheads as proof for the church membership. Looking over the surrounding country we remembered that two great races of people had wound up their existence in the vicinity, had fought their last fight, and that hundreds of thousands had been slain within sight of that hill.” [9], “These records were carried by Ether from the hill Ramah, afterwards called Cumorah, where the Jaredites were destroyed, as well as the Nephites.” [10], “Thirty-six years prior to this time his nation was destroyed in what we term the State of New York, around about a hill, called by that people the Hill of Cumorah, when many hundreds of thousands of the Nephites-men, women and children, fell, during the greatest battle that they had had with the Lamanites.” [11], “It will be, next Thursday night, 54 years since the Prophet Joseph Smith, then but a lad, was permitted by the angel of the Lord to take the gold plates of the Book of Mormon from the hill Cumorah, as it was called in ancient times, located in the State of New York.” [12], “Finally, they became so utterly wicked, so fully ripened for destruction, that one branch of the nation, called the Nephites, gathered their entire people arountario County; and the Lamanites, the opposite army, gathered by millions in the same region. It was approximately near to the waters of Ripliancum, which the Book of Ether says, "by interpretation, is large, or to exceed all." He was a warrior and chieftain under the great prophet Onandagus, who was known from the Hill Cumorah, or eastern sea to the Rocky Mountains. Unfortunately many of those ruins have been destroyed or covered over in the last 200 years . From texas The first occurred sometime before 600 BC in which some two million warriors were killed, along with their wives and children. (CES Letter). The curse was taken from Zelph, or at least, in part–one of his thigh bones was broken by a stone flung from a sling, while in battle, years before his death. The exact direction the site of the final battles lay from Moron is also unclear. Oliver Cowdery said in Letter VII it was the hill of the final battles. It is also near the location of the final battle where the Nephite race was destroyed. In the skeptic’s version of the Hill Cumorah pageant, maybe they pass around gold plates for proof and give updated translations from the plates that were previously sealed? They make the claim early on, and each following argument further bolsters the narrative. It is the place where Moroni (last contributor) hid the record and the place where Joseph Smith found it. This sows discord and isolation within the Mormon community and opens up further opportunities for skeptics to divide and conquer Mormons through social avenues. DNA disproves? It makes sense. Journal of Book of Mormon Studies, BYU Studies. Also, why would hair be preserved many thousands of years on the ground and be found? This atlatll point may be from that last battle of the once great Jaredite people, a story more dramatic than anything Hollywood could conjure. (See “Cumorah,” The Encyclopedia of Mormonism.) Numerous early LDS leaders and non-members recounted the cave story, including Hyrum Smith, Orson Pratt, Edward Stevenson, David Whitmer, William Horne, W.W. Phelps and Elizabeth Kane. A good archeologists team can back this up If a book of metal plates titled “Nephi’s Journal” were discovered in Mexico City today, do you think skeptics would change their minds? Analytics may collect information about your visit to this website, including how many times you clicked on a link and search terms used to arrive at this website, but collected information does NOT include names, addresses, or other such personal information. This is only a portion of the evidence I have seen on this topic, here is a sample, be sure to read info. Dear Gordon, Let’s see, two great battles of extermination took place near the Hill Cumorah. LDS Prophets and numerous Apostles over generations have provided abundant official declarations identifying the hill in New York as the exact site of both epic Book of Mormon battles, where millions of warriors perished with their metal armaments. The degenerate remnant of Lehi’s posterity, the Lamanites or American Indians, have continued until this day. This statement seems to settle the matter in the minds of Neville and many other Heartlanders. The Church maintains a large Hill Cumorah Visitor Center, hosting an annual pageant which reiterates the Lamanite narrative and final battle location. Or just a certain version of science? Sensing that this might be “the last struggle” of his people, Mormon buried all of the sacred records of his people in the hill . (CES Letter). Or–who knows–maybe the battle actually was in New York and all evidence was picked up by people in the ensuing years, apart from some spears and arrows which have been found? A granite monument topped by a nine-foot statue of Moroni was erected at the highest point of the hill in 1935. In the final battle at the Hill Cumorah, the Lamanites completely decimated the Nephites. The fact that Mormon scholars come up with multiple models for Book of Mormon geography implies guilt, that it is all made up. Why is the church holding a pageant at the drumlin hill in New York if that isn’t really where the final battle took place? In 1901, Susan Young Gates said she saw “baskets filled with arrow heads” plowed up by local farmers. Superstition -Is Mormonism at odds with science? [A great battle was fought between the Nephites and the Lamanites in which the Nephite civilization was entirely destroyed.] Archaeologically speaking, it is a clean hill. CES Letter switches the location of Cumorah/ Ramah to Canada in an argument later on because its geography does not fit New York. [1], “According to the Book of Mormon, the Hill Cumorah of the Nephites – the Ramah of the Jaredites – must be regarded as a natural monument overlooking ancient and extensive battle fields. I have a great interest in archaeology and would simply love to visit the museums where the artefacts of the two battles of Cumorah ( as featured in the Book of Mormon ) are housed. The Nephites gather to the land of Cumorah for the final battles—Mormon hides the sacred records in the hill Cumorah—The Lamanites are victorious, and the Nephite nation is destroyed—Hundreds of thousands are slain with the sword. I believe the final battles happened in the Land of Cumorah, near the hill. The hill Cumorah where the battle took place was of large size overseeing the entire land, unlike the New York hill. Mormon clearly separates the hill Cumorah from where Moroni buried the plates (the drumlin in Palmyra). Within just a few days, every living creature within walking distance would have either fled or been consumed. Mormon 6:6. The Great Lakes area of the United States is covered in ruins that match the cities and fortresses of Cumorahland described in the Book of Mormon. However, at this time there are is no physical evidence of a huge battle having taken place in or near the hill Cumorah. To opt out of Google Analytics, visit the Google Analytics Opt-out Page. It would be nice to discuss the site of the battle or what the name Cumorah actually means; it would be an interesting discussion, but unfortunately the narrative shifts from faith to binary science, and before we can really investigate it, we quickly move on to other more effective attacks. Your email address will not be published. The Hill Cumorah in western New York provides almost no cover for Mormon, Moroini and the others to hide out through the night while surrounded by tens of thousands of blood-thirsty Lamanites. The Book of Mormon asserts triple that number in very short order; even 2,000,000 dead (Ether 15) and later hundreds of thousands using steel weapons and armor (Mormon 6). The U.S. Civil War, one of the bloodiest episodes in human history, killed 600,000 men over 4 years. The Nephite, Jaredite, Mulekite, and Lamanite people are very much a part of these as well. No one doubts that the hill where Joseph Smith received the plates is known as Cumorah, but is the hill where the final battles between the Nephites and Lamanites took place another Cumorah? And it giveth light unto all that are in the house. The Book of Mormon was translated from the plates given to Moroni and not those buried in the Hill Cumorah. Ether 5:11 In the second battle the Lamanites destroy the Nephites. Narrative – Previously, we confronted the claim that no archaeological evidence exists for the Book of Mormon at all. There’s this last great battle at the Hill of Cumorah in upstate New York, located near Joseph Smith’s house, and at least 230,000 men, women, and children died in battle at this hill Cumorah. 59) Apostle Orson Pratt spoke many times about the hill Cumorah and never placed it anywhere but New York. Do your research with more heart Sperry, who had held to the New York Cumorah for many years, in this study was persuaded that the hill Cumorah of the last battles had to be located in Mexico north of the Isthmus of Tehuantepec (he made no specific location suggestion). Moroni states in the book of Ether that the Jaredites gathered for battle near "the hill Ramah," the same hill where his father, Mormon, hid up "the records unto the Lord, which were sacred" (Ether 15:11). Do Mormons need science to validate every single detail of their faith? The final, decisive battle bringing about the end of Nephite society took place about ad 385 (recounted in Mormon 6:1–15) around the Hill Cumorah, the same location formerly known as the Hill Ramah, where the Jaredite nation had earlier ended in battle (Ether 15:11). It is a close-minded ideology to believe only what you have a physical explanation for. and flourished until being wiped out after the last great battle that happened near the hill Cumorah. Perhaps in their language Cumorah refers to records, libraries, preservation, or something like that. Doctrine. Brigham Young related a story about the undiscovered cave at Conference on June 17, 1877. Apostle Bruce R. McConkie wrote thet the Hill Cumorah was in New York In 1990, a spokesman for the First Presidency of the LDS church affirmed that the , "The Church has long maintained, as attested to by references in the writings of General Authorities, that the Hill Cumorah in western New York state is the same as referenced in the Book of Mormon." It is like claiming that the Library of Alexandria never really existed because we have no physical evidence today, apart from some alleged ancient tales. . Mormon said he gathered together his people to the “land” of Cumorah near the “hill” Cumorah for this final battle where the ten thousand people he led fell. This hill was known to the Jaredites as Rama. Mormon stated that the Lamanites killed roughly 230,000 of his people. I’ve actually searched the area myself but I couldn’t even find an arrowhead. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints acquired the Hill Cumorah in 1928. Below are two articles from Wayne May’s collection of information about bones found near Hill Cumorah. Joseph’s purported experience could only have been experienced in his mind’s eye, as we know beyond any doubt that no cave exists within the thoroughly explored Hill Cumorah. And that’s what it comes down to. We use the word “Cumorah” today as a proper noun to refer to small hill where Joseph Smith retrieved the gold plates. The two nations were four years in gathering their forces, during which no fighting took place; but at the end of that time, having marshalled all their hosts, the fighting commenced, the Lamanites coming upon the Nephites, and destroying all of them, except a very few, who had previously deserted over to the Lamanites.” [13], “The passages which I have quoted from the Book of Mormon and the more extended discussion of this subject by Elder B. H. Roberts which was published in The Deseret News of March 3, 1928, definitely establish the following facts: That the Hill Cumorah, and the Hill Ramah are identical; that it was around this hill that the armies of both the Jaredites and Nephites, fought their great last battles; that it was in this hill that Mormon deposited all of the sacred records which had been entrusted to his care by Ammaron, except the abridgment which he had made from the plates of Nephi, which were delivered into the hands of his’ son, Moroni. Are pageants always performed at the site of the scenes they depict? Besides failing to give evidence for their claim that Joseph Smith located Cumorah in New York, CES Letter points to the Hill Cumorah pageant in New York as evidence that this is what Mormons really believe. It is known that the Hill Cumorah where the Nephites were destroyed is the hill where the Jaredites were also destroyed. A gathering of fewer than 1,000,000 people, “This time it will have to do with so important a matter as a war of extinction of two peoples, the Nephites and the Jaredites, on the self same battle site, with the same ‘hill’ marking the axis of military movements. I don’t think so. CLICK HERE FOR OUR LATEST PODCASTS Donate. In view of these Book of Mormon facts, one would naturally expect to find some evidences in this section of the country for such wonderful historical events. Yet Cumorah yields no bones, no metal or armor, no roads or fortifications. What a privilege to be here at the Hill Cumorah and to reflect on the momentous events that unfolded on September 22, 1827, when a plowboy prophet took a horse and wagon and, in the dark of night, rode to this hill, where he received an ancient record from the angel Moroni. It’s an easy trick to play when it comes to ancient history, to discount every piece of evidence as coincidence, forged, contradictory, or unfounded. For identification of the Hill Cumorah…Hill Ramah of the Jaredites (Mormon 6:1-11 and Ether 15:11). There must be thousands of artefacts and I would love to see them. The Jaredites arrived in North America about 2300 B.C. This second civilization to which I refer, the Nephites , flourished in America between 600 B.C. The scientists, led b . The Jaradite word for Cumorah, Ramah, appears to be a variant of the Hebrew rāmāh, “elevation, height.” The word Cumorah appears to be related to the Akkadian verb kamāru, “to heap up, to layer.” The prophet Ether said of the final Jaradite Battle at Ramah/Cumorah: “their bones should become as heaps of earth upon the face of the land.” So both Ramah and Cumorah are Jaradite descriptions of a place. About 400 A.D. the last great battle was fought near the hill Cumorah; and the Nephite nation became extinct. The hill Cumorah where the battle took place was of large size overseeing the entire land, unlike the New York hill. Satellite view of the Hill Cumorah with the road winding to the top. No other choices. Good enough for me. Mormon 6; The historical records of these people were buried in this same hill. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hid. — That people forsook the Lord and died in wickedness. This is an incorrect portrayal of what anyone says. By the Nephites this hill was called the ‘Hill Cumorah,’ by the Jaredites the ‘Hill Ramah’; it was that same ‘hill,’ in which the Nephite records were deposited by Mormon and Moroni, and from which Joseph Smith obtained the Book of Mormon, therefore the ‘Mormon Hill,’ of  today—since the coming forth of the Book of Mormon—near Palmyra, New York. Even if it couldn’t be denied as legitimate, they would pass it off as coincidence. The 8-day Jaredite battle at Cumorah could not have involved more than a few thousand, as we see from the count of the actual number killed on the last two days. 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